Comments on: Water is Always Deep

By: Barry Hayes

Barry Hayes — Wed, 16 May 2007 15:21:36 +0000

Krys
Open discussion would have been constructive since the 2003 start of The WD5 plan. Why won’t the 3 boardmembers let Mr. Austic send the actual information to those on the line?
What has been wronmg with that? Except Fearmongering of Development. Why have these three stood in the way of any actual, untwisted, unspun information being sent to the homeowners on the line?

The friends thing regarding Austic is ridiculous.
Water can be distributed in pressure zones more easily than in other pressue zones. higher pressure requires reduction gear this would include those locations downhill from the sources. Wolf road pumping is pretty small and would most like have to be substantially expanded to provide the water proposed by some of those objecting to the present plan.
So is it that Some might get municipal water first before you that you object to?
It cannot be all done at once probably. The steps can be taken to address various problems as they come up.

Not sure about the comment regarding development along rt 96 alone. I don’t know if that is a real restriction or just another fabrication for spin.
Jacksonville would be a better location for commuters to Ithaca simply for distance.

What and who is “WE the redheaded stepchildren” of the town of Ulysses? What does that mean?
that you are being discriminated against in selection for water? that your house is not first on the list of new proposals for supply of water. Water and Sewer are going be necessary in the near future for lake shore dwellers because of runoff and contramination problems as you mention now. These things will all ahve to be dealt with in time and the best options are for as many grants and helpful financial arrangements that can be found for any public project.
What is the fairly rapid development going on in the southern part of the town?
Kinney’s?

By: Krys Cail

Krys Cail — Wed, 16 May 2007 02:53:44 +0000

I think that many times, when people suggest that WD5 would be “good for the area,” they mean Trumansburg and surrounding area (often, the T-burg School District), not the entire Town. There is fairly rapid development going on in the Southern part of the town, and nobody in T-burg seems to know or care [often, they are surprised to learn that my neighborhood is IN Ulysses-- they think it is Ithaca].

There are some reasons that it would be VERY sensible to extend water in the Southern part of the town– in addition to the widespread water quality and quantity problems (inclduing many lakeside properties drawing drinking water from a waterbody now listed as “impaired” by NYS) . There is a lot of current homebuilding, there is a major employer (Cayuga Medical Center and adjacent offices) in walking distance, there is an existing water line (Rt. 96), there are good loop options directly downhill from the line, there is an existing pump station (Wolf Rd.), and an existing natural-gas line (useful for more economical heating of more densely-clustered housing), there are fruit and vegetable farms that could use a reliable irrigation water source, and businesses that might develop better with public water available. AND, from a smart-growth perspective, the area is located much closer to the most-popular-work-and-school-commute-to-location, Ithaca.

But we, you see, are the red-headed stepchildren of the Town of Ulysses. Our (very real) water needs are not as important to some elected officials as those in the “T-burg area.” Oughta be a law to protect us from that. If rational reasons, and current housing-development preference of most of the new residents, favor one area of the town, it is utterly unfair to refuse to consider that area, and only consider public water in the part of the town that many of the decisionmakers own property in. Like they are trying to steer development away from the logical places, toward their own holdings. And, the idea that very little development followed the Jacksonville district might have something to do with folks not wanting to build a house on the state highway, no? It is silly to discount all empirical information about water districts and development from outside of our little town– talk about thinking insularly!!! Where other factors are equal, new homes and businesses will choose to locate where public services are available– very clear connection, proven repeatedly all over the nation.

Who gets services should be decided by a rational, open process that attempts to equally and fairly weight every residents’ needs and concerns.

By: Marcia Horn

Marcia Horn — Wed, 16 May 2007 00:00:40 +0000

Barry,
What I got out of the water part of the survey is that probably they are trying to find out how many have a water problem. I don’t think they were fishing who was for or against public water. That question certainly wouldn’t pertain to people who don’t have a water problem. At least that is how I understood it.
I did notice some of those questions would depend on how one was to interpret them.
I thought it was good to have the little comment boxes because it could clarify how you interpretted the question.

By: Barry Hayes

Barry Hayes — Tue, 15 May 2007 20:49:30 +0000

Who is Mark?
Anyway I was asked this afternoon by a person I know in the Village about a comprehensive planning “survey”. She said why do they only ask the people with water problems whether they would like WD5 to proceed?

Good question. I said I would have to look again at the survey to respond. She also asked what does education level have to do with water?
another good question about the irrelevancy of the questions on the survey. Obfuscation again?
She said that while she has village water she would definitely vote yes for WD5 because it is a good idea for the area. I was suprised she felt so strongly about that but it does follow that some people may be considering the whole town and not just themselves. I guess whoever Mark is is not for WD5. He should be as well as this will help trumansburg to be a decent place to live even for other people besides ourselves. EGAD!! Foreigners in our midst!!!can you imagine anyone acting in favor of something that didn’t directly favor only themselves?
What a concept.

Oh, I forgot that is why governments were formed.

By: Marcia Horn

Marcia Horn — Tue, 15 May 2007 18:20:24 +0000

Frankly Mark, I don’t have anything personally to gain with or without Water District #5. I live in the village, I have water.. I’m sure it is a concern to residents who don’t have water in the town. People who I know who spend over a thousand dollars a year to get their water hauled in, I understand why it is a concern to them.
I don’t think everyone who wants water in the town is related to Mr. Austic.
No, I don’t have any relevant data to show that there won’t be development where water is placed. Do you have relevant data pertaining to our area that shows that it will? Since district #3 was put in place in Jacksonville very little has been built since.
My comments were hypothetical. That if development happened it wouldn’t have to be the big ugly bear. There are many enviromentally sound, low impact business, Green business starters that could be welcome in a place like this. That is what I meant by thinking “outside the box.”
I attend village and town board meetings. I was one of a handful of people at the last town meeting, I think there was probably six people there. As a citizen it is important to me that I know what the issues are and I attended those meetings long before I ever became interested in running for public office.
I think I’m quite a bit more open minded than the pro development types you accuse me of “sucking up” to.
But if you want to pigeon hole me from the get go, Im certainly not going to attack you for saying what you think.

By: mark

mark — Tue, 15 May 2007 16:11:26 +0000

In response to Marcia Horn, there is a question(s) to be asked. What interest do you have in the builidng of the water district? do you own land where the district is to go like mr austic or like his relatives? do you have any relevant data that shows where water is placed there will be no development? or is your new found interest in the water district solely to PROMOTE YOURSELF? What better way to start a campaign to get back as trustee than suck up to the pro-development types. looks like politics as usual here in tburg.
Too bad.

By: Marcia Horn

Marcia Horn — Tue, 15 May 2007 12:31:35 +0000

I find it interesting that those who use the “D” word to impose a sense of fear seem to be very narrow minded on what the possiblities of responsible development could be. It seems to me they don’t think “outside of The Box” so to speak.
With people being able to do business almost anywhere now, more business like FLOTECH become wonderful possibilities.
I was at a banquet a few weeks ago and spoke with someone who said they were talking to someone who was interested in a place like Trumansburg to move their business. They design robots that go into buildings and remove lead paint and asbestos so they don’t have to send people in to do it.
Those business’s are out there, we need a more creative vision for our development.

By: Barry Hayes

Barry Hayes — Mon, 14 May 2007 22:04:52 +0000

Phylogeny is not actually hayes
she is independent and uses my email
A pen name is kinda cool.
Jon. the political leanings are obvious indeed but the real person is not necessarily reflected in politics that would be rather limited. We know what Ferrari does but we know not what your livlihood is made up of. semms blogs are largely inhabited by people who don’t have much to do. Guess I would have to include myself in that.
Just the usual banter re: ;ocal issues. I guess it serves a purpose to express opinions after all. Planning is good also but it does have to follow engineering limitations such as gravity and that is part of why the WD5 project includes those it does include. logistics is paramount. costs are important. finaincing is important. Is the “development fear mongers shop” the driving force behind this objection to WD5 or is it a personality clash with Austic. the things that really annoys me is the spin of it all especial;ly the spin from the frearmongering group. that WD5 will bring immense, unbridled, development. It won’t there is no work in this area to attract such development and transportation is pretty bad in and around Ithaca. Very poor traffic operations in Ithaca.
avoid it if possible for shopping and so on. Easier to go to Horseheads and Elmira. More productive too so far.
Anyway
is it the development that people are afraid of with a small step water project?
Notice that development in Long Island and resort areas where there is money to spend. they can require certain architectural forms to be followed in suchg areas. and minimum sized lots for things. but then look at the Post office layout. Squeezed onto a postage stamp lot and not even a decent drive up letter drop in the planning. That is what the Feds do. they say here put this building on your lot. Make it fit. Who cares about flow of traffic or efficiency this is what you have to do for the post office.
We still have some control of WD5 and it is not a bad plan. It does not solve all water issues forever but it does resolve some and at a reasonable price or at least it was a reasonable price. It will be higher the more we quibble.
Look at the mess in the village with sidewalks and there are still no walks where they should be along south street where kids walk all over the streets when school buses are traveling the same road. The ones that have been added are nice esp out to the fairgrounds, however they should continue on both sides to that shopping area that is developing.
Ok then
However the side walks are a step toward some progress again not solving all issues but a step.

By: Jonathan Cook

Jonathan Cook — Mon, 14 May 2007 21:42:49 +0000

I agree with you, Allen. Slow, critical examination is caused for, not the rush into a deal just because there’s a political arrangement reached between different factions. This is about vision, not just saving money.

The idea that growth can be just about replacing parts shows what a vague and practically useless term growth really gets to be. Isn’t it funny how everybody says that they’re for smart growth, even those people who favor slapping a bunch of condominiums up out in the middle of the town without any services outside of the town available within walking distance? It kind of makes you wonder who is proposing stupid growth.

The more this discussion develops, the more I am coming to distrust words like “growth” and “development”. They are much too imprecise for use.

Terms like sprawl and sustainability are more meaningful, because they describe a certain kind of growth. I’d like to know more what kinds of terms people use to describe the particular kind of changes they’d like to see or not see, and how those changes are going to be facilitated or hindered by the proposed Water District 5.

By: Allen Carstensen

Allen Carstensen — Mon, 14 May 2007 15:11:28 +0000

Jon said -

“Actually, Allen, even for a single organism, the claim that there is a natural law proclaiming that without growth there is death is absurd. For most of a human beingâ€™s life – past the age of 20 or so – it is downright unhealthy for the body to grow larger.”

Heh, I’m on your side, be nice. I don’t know how much longer I can stand the analogies, but, when a human reaches maturity, physical growth continues constantly in order to replace damaged cells. So I didn’t want to leave myself open to attack from PeePee Hayes.

As a remodeling contractor, I sometimes perform a similar function. WD5 might be more about sprawl than sustainability, so my vote is for careful consideration, with input from planning professionals as Lucia Tyler, and Kyrs Cail are asking for.

By: Jonathan Cook

Jonathan Cook — Mon, 14 May 2007 14:31:47 +0000

No, you said, “Growth is always the antithesis of death”.

Now death is a part of growth?

If that’s so, what’s going to have to die to get Water District 5 pushed through?

As for my political affiliation, I’ve made that clear many times. I used to be Democrat, but last autumn I re-registered as independent, not affiliated with any political party.

By: Barry Hayes

Barry Hayes — Mon, 14 May 2007 13:58:57 +0000

Jon
Didn’t I say growth with wisdom?
My problem remains the disenfranchise ment of those responsible for the Water district costs. Namely me and others on the route. wE have yet to see the actual plan presented to those who will pay the lion’s share of the cost. Cancer may be undesireable growth but I see that all the time in tburg. there has to be growth and it needs to be regulated. You have actually been out of town what do you do anyway> Steve Ferrari told us all his affiliations when he was attacked by the blog. So why not you?
Who are you? You know the song “Who” by the Who I believe.
Anyway
Yes, growth is that annoying law of nature no matter how you would like to spin it.
Actually a case could be made that death is part of growth as well in the natural continuum.
anyway
Water district 5 is a step that can fill some needs at a reasonable cost that are fairly urgent to be filled. I do not see the terrifying growth that some of the local fear mongers seem to see.
Growth is generally a good thing for all concerned. I do not like the appearance of much of the local building but then this is not Skaneateles or Cazenovia with unlimited income except for a few. the taxation will drive out the regular people eventually but I guess that is after all the objective here. Keep out or drive out the riffraff. Tax base is a good way to do that of course. Anyway I doubt we will see any dramatic growth in Trumansburg resulting from water district 5 it has not occurred in Jacksonville. The more likely corridor is in Lansing and has been there.
better transportation options. Ithaca ?Transportation is a mess from planning or practicality point of view so the preferred location would be on that side of the lake so far. Ithaca Needs a by-pass.
Water district 5 merely addresses a few immediate problems in water distribution nothing more
and it is absurd to think it will lead to massive Levittown development.